Get the Rest You Need - Saundra Dalton-Smith (Podcast Episode 23)

Guest Dr. Saundra Dalton Smith tells us about seven different types of rest and how God helped her recover from a season of burnout.

Scripture References

Isaiah 30:15
For thus said the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel: In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and in trust shall be your strength. But you refused (NRSV)

Genesis 2:2-3
And on the seventh day God finished the work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all the work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all the work that he had done in creation. (NRSV)

Philippians 4:8
Finally, beloved, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is pleasing, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. (NRSV)

Psalm 139:14
​I praise you, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made. Wonderful are your works; that I know very well. (NRSV)

2 Corinthians 1:8
​We do not want you to be unaware, brothers and sisters, of the affliction we experienced in Asia; for we were so utterly, unbearably crushed that we despaired of life itself. (NRSV)

Additional Resources Referenced, by Saundra Dalton-Smith

Sacred Rest, by Saundra Dalton-Smith

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​​Leah Archibald: Making It Work is brought to you by The Max De Pree Center for Leadership at Fuller Theological Seminary and the Theology of Work Project.

Mark Roberts: Welcome to Making it Work

LA: Through conversation, scripture and stories, we invite God into work’s biggest challenges... so that you can live out your purpose in the workplace. I’m Mark Roberts.

LA: And I’m Leah Archibald. And this is Making It Work.

LA: Do you wake up tired or face mental fog midday through your workday? It could be that you're not getting enough rest or not the right type of rest, says our guest, Dr. Saundra Dalton Smith. But the solution is not as straightforward as getting eight hours of sleep a night. According to her research, there are seven different types of rest. And a deficiency in just one of these areas might mean that you're not getting enough. Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith knows this from personal experience. She not only treats patients suffering from rest deficiency. She also recovered from her own experience of burnout. In her book "Sacred Rest," she describes not only a physical need for rest but rest as a spiritual experience. Dr. Saundra, welcome to the Making it Work podcast.

Dr. Saundra Dalton-Smith: Hi, thanks for having me.

LA: So tell us about your rest epiphany. When did you realize that you needed to get serious about rest for yourself?

SD: Well, I think for me, it really started when I got to a place in my life where I done all the work that I felt like I was to do - all the things that I was really excited about accomplishing. I had worked toward those and gotten to a level of success, or at least what I thought success would look like. And when I got to that point, I was exhausted. I was tired all the time. I had two young toddlers and didn't have the energy to really play with them or enjoy them and enjoy that phase of being a mother. And I recall one day when I came home from work, I picked them up from daycare, set them in front of the TV, and I just laid out on the floor. I just really gotten to the end of myself. And it was really during that moment that it finally really hit me. This is the first time I've stopped, intentionally stopped on purpose in a very long time. And, for that moment to be really at a place of desperation where I just could not see continuing the way that I was living.

LA: Tell me how your work was going before you hit this moment, which I can really identify, like, just laying down on the floor. Like I'm done. I've all done. What was your work like leading up to that moment. Did it feel like you were working in a frenzy? Did you feel like you were really enjoying your work, but just we're not getting enough rest?

SD: I was still enjoying the work to some degree. I've always wanted to be a physician. And that's been my life's dream. So I was living the dream, so to speak, I was enjoying my time with my patients when I would... Well, let me put it this way, I would wake up in the morning, and I would wake up tired. I would get the eight, nine, sometimes 10 hours of sleep, and I never felt refreshed. I always woke up tired. And as a physician - and many careers are like this - you spend so much time working that fatigue just seems like the norm. It's just I have a high-stress high-pressure job is just the norm, right? So I didn't think of that as being something that was bad or off. I just considered it part of my career choice.

What hit me is when I got to the point where I came home one day, before even at the point of laying on the floor, I remember coming home one day, and my husband, who I adore - I was cooking dinner - and I remember he walked up behind me and gave me a hug. And in that moment, it was like, I don't know what his expectations were. But in my head, it's like, I can't give anything to anyone else. And I literally said out of my mouth, I am so sorry. But I gave everything I have at the office. I have nothing left for you today. And, I think that's when it really started to hit me how much my work was affecting every other aspect of my life because it was leaving me so depleted. And I was not allowing myself to be restored or filled back up.

LA: Now, in your book, "Sacred Rest." You talked about this moment on the floor as kind of an epiphany with God. You had a kind of spiritual experience. Tell me about how your spirituality or your faith integrated with this feeling of being on the floor or needing rest?

SD: Oh well, when I was laying there, the thing that hit me was how much peace I felt. And it was during that time that I really just felt like, or sensed, I guess, is the correct word. That God was kind of showing me how my refusal to stop, my refusal to accept opportunities to rest. And that took me into a study of really what does rest look like. What is rest in the Bible? I mean, I'm familiar with the Sabbath. I wasn't doing any type of Sabbath-keeping, but I was familiar with it. And in my head, I couldn't wrap my thought process around. How do I... The hospitals don't close on Sunday. People don't stop going to the ER on Sunday. So I couldn't just say I'm going to take Sunday off and have it be my day of Sabbath. And I really needed to get a clear understanding of how do I apply this in my everyday life. So that Sabbath becomes a lifestyle. It becomes part of what I'm doing every single day. And that's where that journey began.

It was just really laying on that floor and feeling like God was saying, "You're not receiving the rest that I'm giving you." I really kind of think back to Isaiah 30:15, where it talks about in returning and rest you shall be saved, in quietness and trust, shall be your strength, and it finishes with, but you were unwilling. And that's how I felt. I've been unwilling to even take a look at what rest looks like for me. I'm a natural high achiever. I like to do stuff, get things done, check it off my to-do list, meet my goals, that's my natural personality. But for those of us who function like that, it becomes all about the work, and the rest becomes kind of like this side item. It's not the entree it's just this little thing on the side that if I have room, then I'll nibble at that a little bit, but it's not something I'm going to take any nourishment from, or really to see as really being beneficial for me. And I had to completely change my mindset about that, because without the rest, the work just becomes this busy work. It loses its ability to be satisfying, you kind of stop learning from the work, and being able to grow from the work, it pulls you down instead of helps build you up, and that's what work had become to me. It had become this thing that I did without ever really looking at what it was doing in me, and was it really allowing me to appreciate it for what it was.

LA: That's really different from the created value of rest, 'cause from the beginning when God sets out rest in Genesis 2 verse 2-3, it's really integrated with work. They're not opposing factors, rest and work. God finished the work that he had done and He rested on the seventh day from all the work that he had done. So in the same sentence, rest and work are really integrated.

SD: Yeah, and something that really when I started doing my studies regarding the whole work rest ratio I spent probably an entire year in Genesis because I really wanted to get a feel for what is God telling us about rest and one of the things that really stood out to me was on day six man is created and we're kind of commissioned and told to have dominion, multiply we're kind of given a mandate on what we're here for and it was really interesting to me that we were created on the sixth day, animals created, man is created then on the seventh day God rested. It never really dawned on me to think what was man doing on the seventh day while God was resting because it really doesn't talk about man working until the next chapter and so when I was sitting there and I was looking at that I was like, if God was resting on the seventh day and it doesn't talk about actually man doing work until after that period I have to assume man was resting too on that day before going into the work so there was commissioning of, let me tell you who you are, what to do, let me show you who you are in me an identity period and then resting with God period and then the work and that became how I started to look at how my life should be lived. I need time to know who I am and what God's called me to do and then I need to not begin with the work but begin with the rest and with the time in His presence and to work from that place of rest rather than to work to earn my rest.

LA: That's so interesting. So you're actually taking the timeline that's laid out in Genesis, first creation, then commissioning, then resting, then work and applying that to the way that you think about your own work in your life.

SD: Yes, because I spent many years working in an attempt to earn rest and to get to a point where I feel like I've done enough to rest and that left me drained, depleted and depressed. And flipping that completely around and really making time with God, time getting a clear understanding of what I feel He's called me to do, not the career that I have but what am I called to do, what is it that I'm most passionate about? I'm a physician by practice but my heart is really to help people heal from pain. Whether that's emotional pain, spiritual pain, relational pain that is my heart so when I really got clear about that then everything started changing because then I don't feel this limitation to be pulled down pathways of work that don't line up with what I feel like God has given me to do, the work that I'm to do, not my career but the actual call of God on my life.

LA: Mark, what do you feel about Saundra's analysis of Genesis here, it's an interesting one.

MR: Well, it's fascinating, I love it I had never thought quite that way but I think you're absolutely right Saundra, it isn't that God is resting on the Sabbath and human beings are running around doing all this work, certainly I think it would be right to assume that indeed they are sharing in the rest and then there's the next day and so the rest for human beings isn't the reward, it isn't well, you have finally worked hard enough now you get to rest, rest is a gift and it's built in and it's something that we get to and ought to enjoy simply as a part of God's created intention for us so I love the way you're thinking about that.

LA: Dr. Saundr,a in your book you describe seven different types of rest, can you describe these for our listeners?

SD: Yes, well, the first three are ones that most people are probably familiar with that's the physical, mental and spiritual rest and then the other three that well documented within science but maybe not as well known to the general population are things like emotional, social, sensory and creative rest. Different people would use more of one of those types of energy throughout the day and so they need more rest in those areas. With physical rest you're looking at things like, one way of knowing if you have a physical rest deficit if you're someone who tends to have a lot of muscle aches and body and pains that are kind of unexplained, if your job has a tendency to be very physical where you stay chronically tired within your muscles or if your job is sedentary and you have problems with swelling in your legs and your feet all of those are types of physical rest deficits because it goes back to an issue with the need for improved circulation and lymphatic drainage. Did you want me to go through all of them just kind of that quick?

LA: I do. So imagine, let's pretend that we are patients coming in to your practice, how would you tell us to self-diagnose ourselves? What actions could we take? How can we figure out what type of rest we need?

SD: Well, that's actually why I came up with a quiz because it's... I'll go through the other types of rests, because what I do is I usually have people, I tell you what a rest deficit looks like in each of the areas, and so when you're hearing the rest deficit, if it registers with kind of your life it's very easy to pick up on. You're like, "Oh yeah. I do that, or I experience that." But the quiz, is at, it's a free assessment that I have, it's very intensive. Some people will say, some people have asked me, "Can't you make this shorter?" I could but it wouldn't be accurate. So to really be accurate, it has to kind of dig deep into how you're responding to things. And so, it takes about five to 10 minutes to do the assessment. I consider it your... A kind of a free doctor's visit because at the end you get an assessment that tells you your score in all of the seven types of rests. That way, you're not just trying to get all seven, we all need all seven, but there will be some that you already automatically excel at. You already have learned the mechanisms to get rest in those areas, but there will usually be one or two, particularly, if you tend to wake up tired, it's not necessarily sleep then. So there's usually one or two that you are probably completely omitting, either because you don't know you need rest in those areas, or you may not even know that type of rest existed.

LA: So you told us about physical rest. If we have a physical rest deficit then we have the aches and pains in our muscles. The next one is mental rest. What does a mental rest deficit look like?

SD: A mental rest deficit is if you've ever had that experience where you walk into a room and you're like, "Why am I in here? What am I doing here?" And you're like 35, 40, you're a long way from dementia, but you feel like sometimes that you may have early onset, but that's not something in your family history. You go to the grocery store for those two or three items and you can't recall like half of them. When you lay down to go to sleep at night and your mind won't shut up, you're constantly ruminating through thoughts and checking off next day's to-do list, those are signs of a mental rest deficit. Your ability to concentrate, to focus on a single thought, to quiet and calm your mind, have all kind of gotten jumbled. We call it monkey brain. You see the monkeys at the zoo swinging from one rope to the other, that's what your thought patterns are doing when you have a mental rest deficit.

LA: Okay, so I raise my hand, guilty.

MR: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

LA: Tell me what to do. What do you do? What's the prescription for a mental rest deficit?

SD: Well, one really... Well, I'll give you a couple... Two of them. One really simple one that some people find beneficial at bedtime, particularly, if you're thinking of a thousand things that you're needing to keep up with for tomorrow or check off your to-do list is to keep just a note pad or post-it notes, scrap piece of paper, anything, but something concrete to write down whatever those thoughts are because the way the brain works, if you are ruminating on it, if all the neural synapses kind of interconnect with each other, and it makes it a hard thought pattern to break. When you write it down on something concrete, you break that thought pattern and so then you're able to release it. And until you release it, it's gonna try to... Your brain doesn't wanna fail you so it's gonna try to hold on to it even at the expense of your sleep quality. So you wanna be able to dump that out. We call it a brain dump.

LA: Alright. Brain dump. I wrote it on my prescription pad. This is like number one for me today. Brain dump before I go to bed.

SD: And then the second thing is if you're someone who tends to ruminate on the negative, which a lot of people do, your boss walks in and tells you something, that's some constructive criticism and your head can't get off of, "I'm horrible." I can't do this job or whatever the negative thought pattern is to meditate on either a single word, a single scripture, or a single characteristic of God. I tend to like the single characteristic of God because you can really make that short, and so every time you're thinking about "Oh, I'm unlovable," you can come up with kind of this one-sentence phrase that you're saying just to kinda keep your thought patterns focused on those things that are pure and noble and lovely.

LA: So you'll either repeat a scripture, or you'll repeat something like "God is loving" or something like from Psalm 139. "I am fearfully and wonderfully made. "

SD: Yeah. One that I tend to repeat a lot, I do a lot of speaking, I've never... I'm kind of naturally introverted. It has been years of training with God to get comfortable on stages, and before I get on any stage I have to kind of put to rest the fears, the insecurities, all of those things. And so something that I continuously say is, "I am His beloved." "I am His beloved." And so that is the thought pattern, so whenever I hear the negative things come back, that's what I repeat to myself.

LA: So tell us about this next one, spiritual rest.

SD: Well, spiritual rest, for most people who have any type of religious background or spirituality is one that they tend to understand to some degree, but I think the way that I like to look at it and to describe it to people is it's more than just a religious understanding, it's focusing on the relationship with God.

When I describe it with teens because they're the ones that I tend to have to explain spiritual rest in more detail to, when I sit down with youth groups and I'll describe this, what I ask them to do... This is a techno-savvy generation. So when I talk to them about prayer and relationship with God, it seems kinda woo-woo. They're like, "Oh, I don't know what you mean by that." And so, what I have them do, I say, "If God sent you a text message today, what would you need it to say to quiet your heart, to calm your fears, to uplift you?" And I have them text that to themselves. And when they read that text and they think of it in that regard, they start thinking, "This is what you mean by relationship. I text my friends and they say things to me and I say things back to them and we have a relationship." That helps a lot of them to kinda start seeing this as, "I can have that same relationship with God."

And the interesting thing and the science, I'm a science geek, so there's a lot of science tidbits within Sacred Rest, but the interesting thing about that is that the science shows that prayer actually lays down the same memory patterns as having a conversation with a person face-to-face. And I think that's beautiful. [chuckle] It's beautiful to think that the same way that if I'm sitting across from someone having coffee and having a conversation and those memory patterns are being laid down that I can have that same thing with God and even on a deeper and greater level.

LA: So we have this need for this relationship that we have to rest in, and that's the nature of spiritual rest is what you're saying?

SD: Yes. We can't just see it as religion. It has to get to a place of relationship where you feel personally loved and cared for.

MR: That's really good.

SD: The next type of rest is emotional rest and part of emotional rest is just that, being able to be very authentic and to be vulnerable, and to be able to share your truth without having your truth be who you are. And I think we are in a situation now where a lot of people fear that because they fear the judgment and the shame that's associated with if you're not perfect. Can a Christian be depressed? And if you are, what does that say about your faith? And all of those kind of thought processes really kind of... It's is heavy and it's not restful. It really steals our ability to rest. And so, I think that's a huge part of it and I'm a huge advocate for mental health and I think the biggest part of advocacy is being at a point where you're willing to say, "I've struggled with this. It doesn't define me but it is a part of what I've experienced." And so, being willing to share that with other people because one of the... What I feel like the best part of the Bible is the ability or authenticity that we see within the lives of these spiritual giants. We see David walking through the struggles. We see Paul dealing with all of his stuff. We see all of these people that we look at their lives and we say, "Wow, what great faith they had." But we also see their struggles and I think that's an important part of helping others to kind of really learn how to live out a life of faith.

MR: No that's awesome. Yeah, you remind me of the first chapter in 2 Corinthians where Paul says, "I need you folks to know just how bad it was. In fact, I despaired of life itself." So, that's about as open sharing as one could imagine, really. And then out of that, the sharing of God's grace. You just hear it differently when you hear it from someone who says, "Yeah, I've been there and I know what it is to hurt that way, and in that, God reached out and touched me." So, that's a great reminder as well as a gift to us.

LA: Dr. Saundra, could you give us a primer on the last three types of rests, social, sensory and creative?

MR: Yeah, you're gonna keep us on track aren't you Leah, thank you for that. [chuckle]

SD: So let's see. So, I'll start with sensory. Sensory is really basic. Sensory rest has to do with, if you work in any type of situation with bright lights, computer screens, noises, you could be a stay-at-home mom with high-pitched kids screaming in the background or a teacher but anything like that can actually cause you to be overstimulated. And so, our sensory input is excessively high now with all of the technology. So, part of reversing that is just really getting back to the basics of silence and darkness. When you go to bed at night, you want your room to be as dark as you can get it and you wanna limit the amount of blue light you're allowing into your setting right before bedtime so that that doesn't mess with your sleep cycle. And you wanna get back to silence. So, if no one's watching the TV, don't have it playing all the time. I love praise music. I get a lot of benefit from praise music but sometimes I need silence in my car, not the praise music. I need to let all of the noise go away so that I can actually just kind of let my sensory system get back to a place of rest.

LA: So, after people listen to the podcast, turn off the podcast player. We want you to listen to the end and then turn it off, and don't start another one.

SD: Yeah, and sensory rest, most people who don't know that they need it but they know that they're aggravated after certain high sensory situations. So they feel the agitation and the anxiety from that but you need the rest to kinda counteract that.

LA: And tell us about social rest.

SD: Social rest is the rest we get from being around life-giving people. Some people, when I say social rest think I'm talking about going into isolation. No, that's probably more along the lines of sensory and silence. Social rest is... Everybody in our life is either kind of pulling on us negatively or pouring into us with a positive atmosphere or energy. So, let's say, your kids, your elderly parents, your colleagues that are needing you at work. All of these people are needing things from you, so they are pulling from your personal resources. As adults, most of us spend most of our time with the people who are pulling on us. And when I say negative, I'm not meaning they're negative people. I'm meaning they're negatively pulling on our energy resources. However, we tend to limit those positive friendships that solely want to pour back into us because we feel like we should spend more of our time with those other people. But if you're only being poured out, then you're gonna get empty. You have to have those people in your life who are positive life-giving influences, who aren't wanting anything from you, who are friends that are just there to pour back into your life. And so, one of the simple ways to do this... My closest two friends... I'm on the East Coast, one's on the West Coast, the other one's in Canada. We can't see each other but once a year, we get together for a girls retreat. But every month, we go on Skype for an hour and pray together, and see each other's faces, feel each other's presence and look in each other's eyes. And that is what social rest looks like. It doesn't mean you have to be face-to-face but you do need to be able to enjoy the presence of those who are life-giving to you.

LA: I love... That is so practical. That's such a practical tip. Just get on Skype. [chuckle] Just do it. Just do the thing that you need to do. Some of us, I could imagine hearing this advice and being like, "I don't know what to do. Yes, I have a social deficit but I don't know what to do." But that's why I love this practical tip. Get on Skype with some people who are not your kids [chuckle] and the needy ones.

SD: And I love that a lot of mom groups, that's what they've been doing. They're like, "I can't go out to see my friends anymore, I have the littles at home. So, how am I... I don't have a babysitter." So a lot of mom groups now are doing this every Thursday at 7:30, they do a 15-20 minute whatever, a coffee date. So, however many moms can hop on the line at that time, they get a chance to have some community, not feel so alone in those early years of mommy-hood and really get that social rest that they need.

LA: And tell us about this last type of rest, creative rest.

SD: Creative rest is very interesting because most people have never heard of it but it's the one that so many are deficient in. You can get a sense of what creative rest looks like if you're the type of person who just enjoys being around bodies of water or the beach, or nature, when you're around those settings, you just feel better, you feel energized and relaxed, and restored. What creative rest is is the rest that comes when we allow ourselves to appreciate beauty in whatever form that is. It could be God-made beauty, natural settings, it could be man-made beauty like artwork or the symphony, or theater. But when you're around those settings, there's a peace that comes upon you because you are not trying to manufacture the beauty, you're not trying to work to make the beauty, you are allowing yourself the ability to appreciate the beauty that's around you. And the thing about that is when I mention creative rest, a lot of people say, "Well, I'm not a creative. I don't draw, I don't write, I don't [chuckle] do any of those kind of things." But what I'm finding is the highest number of creative rest deficit is occurring in business people, entrepreneurs, teachers, those who have to be innovative because innovation is creativity. If you're a teacher and you're having to decide how to present a lesson plan so your auditory students and your visual students can both understand it, you're having to be creative. If you're a business owner and you're trying to market your product, you're having to be creative. And so, I find that a lot of people have creative rest deficit and those are the people who don't see themselves as creative, so they don't allow themselves those times of appreciating the beauty around them.

LA: So, they are the ones who have to get out more, get out for a walk in the park or go to an art museum. Is that what you're saying?

SD: Those can all be part of their rest restoration plan but what I'm seeing in a lot of offices when I do consulting for companies that are full of burned out people and they're trying to revive their staff, what I'm seeing with a lot of them is we go in and we start talking about what motivates and inspires people within their office. Sometimes it's as basic as taking those beige walls that are everywhere and putting up some beautiful artwork on them. Sometimes it's painting a couple of walls to have some accent colors so that [chuckle] we're not just looking at the beige all day long in an office space where we're trying to have creativity and innovation.

LA: So, if this is you in your office space, please ask permission first. We're not... Dr. Saundra is saying, "This might be a prescription for you," but maybe check with HR before you go take out your can of paint and paint a accent wall opposite from you in lavender. But I'm gonna put in my request today for an accent wall.

SD: I love what one of my coaching clients did. She was in a very small cubicle. She's in one of these spaces in California where it's all open work spaces, nobody really has a wall. It's just a bunch of cubicle spaces. She actually found images that she loves of the beach and of nature and she put those as her screensaver on her computer. And so, she's one of those who actually gets inspired by water. And the science actually showed that your response, your brain response, is very similar whether you're actually standing at the beach or if you're looking at it on a screen. It's the certain colors of blue and green have an effect on the brain for those people who are affected by that. And so, that's how she actually overcame that because she couldn't paint a wall or bring in her own artwork that she could hang.

LA: This is fantastic. We could talk about it forever but I wanna give our listeners a rest so that they can go put some of your tips into practice. Do you have any last tips or some general encouragement for someone who might come into your office just facing a chronic rest deficit?

SD: Yeah, the main thing to keep in mind is that rest looks different for each person. I always say, "Don't allow yourself to feel judged by the type of rest that you need." The type of rest you need is gonna be dependent on where you're pouring out in your day. And so, for husbands and wives, often times, the rest that each needs is completely different. But for spouses, I would say this, one of the key types of rests that I've found that have been very helpful with rebuilding marriages and relationships is we talked about with social rest, about that rest of being in someone's presence. Most spouses now spend excessive amount of time looking at their screens and not necessarily at each other. Part of the 30-day rest challenge that I do is to require that spouses actually spend five minutes each day for a week looking into each other's eyes and asking the question, "How was your day?" and not allowing their spouse to get away with a "It was fine," or something like that, but to actually have that chance to have that emotional rest as well, to open up and just really talk about what's going on, and to get back into a comfort level of being eye to eye with the person that they married because that's becoming very uncommon now with the amount of screen time that many of us are enjoying.

LA: That's fantastic. Go ahead, Mark.

MR: Wow, well, this has just been such a great conversation. I know different pieces will connect with different parts of our audience. I know, for me, I'm just thinking this is a personal tutorial and this is great, right down to that last one. And when my wife hears this she's gonna be cheering you on on that one, now but because this won't play for a while, I got a head start, so I can be doing this and she won't know that I learned it from you, and she'll just think I'm really awesome. So, thank you. [laughter]

LA: Insider tips.

MR: Yes, and then when it plays, she'll say, "Oh, you've already been doing this." [chuckle]

LA: Oh, my gosh.

MR: I know. You're helping me out here in my marriage, not just my rest so thank you. And I am serious, that is really important and it is so easy. So, I'm encouraged to get the kind of rest we're you're talking about.

LA: Dr. Saundra, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.

SD: It's been my pleasure.

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